A Conversation with Tim at Theoretically Media | The Curious Refuge Podcast
A Conversation with Tim at Theoretically Media| Episode 04
The Future of Filmmaking | The Curious Refuge Podcast 04
Welcome to Episode 04 of The Curious Refuge Podcast, a show where curiosity meets creativity and innovation. Today, we're excited to host a very special guest, Tim Simmons, the visionary owner and founder of Theoretically Media.
Renowned as one of the foremost curators in the AI News and tools domain, Tim's insights and analyses are second to none. His ability to rapidly dissect and present content on the latest AI tools is unparalleled; typically, within just 24 hours of a new release, Tim's expert commentary is ready for consumption. In this thought-provoking episode, we delve deep into the evolving landscape of AI tools.
Join us as we explore and discuss the future trajectories of these technologies and how they're set to reshape the industry in 2024. This is an episode brimming with foresight and expert perspectives that you won't want to miss!
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The Future of Filmmaking | A Conversation with Tim of Theoretically Media
Below is a transcript of the episode 04 of The Curious Refuge Podcast.
The Curious Refuge Podcast 04 | The Future of Filmmaking
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Curious Refuge Podcast. Now, this podcast is all about having conversations about the future of art and storytelling through the power of artificial intelligence. However, one of the big challenges that arises whenever you try to learn all of these A.I. tools is simply the fact that they change and update almost constantly. And that brings us to today's guest.
Tim is the creator of Theoretically Media, a YouTube channel dedicated to helping folks learn A.I. tools. Tim's content has helped hundreds of thousands of people on their artistic journeys. And he is also my personal favorite YouTuber for staying up to date on everything happening with A.I.. As it relates to artwork. Tim has his fingers on the pulse of what's happening in A.I. and has really been covering this gigantic seismic shift that's been happening basically in real time.
So for this episode, we wanted to have Tim on the podcast to chat about how the creative world has changed and where we might be heading in the near future.
Tim, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast. Hi guys. Yeah, absolutely. Pleasure to be here. Always reciprocal as well. Always love. Any time a c, r video drops, I am all over it.
The amount of lunches we've had with you on our screen watching Tim teach us and we're just like eating whatever.
Well, and I know with you guys, I try to keep my videos at around like, like 8 to 13 minutes. So that says a lot about how fast you eat lunch, because I can only imagine that keeping up with everything and doing videos, we do not have much time to eat.
Yeah, exactly. That is true. Well, before we get to the meat and potatoes, speaking of lunch, I think it'd be helpful to maybe just quickly introduce yourself. Tim So what's your background and what brought you into the world of artificial intelligence?
Yeah, sure. I think there probably is a pretty good amount of crossover audience between folks that watch you and folks that watch me.
Yeah, I have a channel called Theoretically Media. I do. It's essentially like creative A.I. tutorials and news. I mean, much like the content that you guys do as well.
My background is that I so I lived in L.A. for a number of years, worked in Hollywood, eventually ended up moving back east and had the channel initially started as a music tutorial channel, and the guitarist back there focused on a piece of software called Ableton, which is kind of a la digital audio workstation.
But around I guess in November of 2022, I started to see how I was kind of creeping into music. By that point I was already using like mid Journey version three as well, but I started to see I creeping around to music with the very early. I think it was called riff Fusion, so it was stable, the fusion audio.
And I really just started to see, you know, Chachi, he really started to kind of poke its head in. I think at that point we were still on the playground version, but it became very clear that 2023 was going to be the year of I and I don't think I've been proven wrong. So I started to pivot the channel towards that direction.
And, you know, so I was pretty much just I think it was good because I got a good ramp up between November, December, January and February, so that when March happened. So I think everyone pretty much universally agrees that March of 2023 is when everything went to the moon. So yeah, see, I ever since that I've been just kind of holding on for dear life.
Pretty much before. I guess we get into some of the more kind of visual AI tools and you know, as it relates to filmmaking, I guess if we could just circle back to the music specifically, because I think that's it's a very interesting field that we haven't had a chance to personally explore so much. So my quick tests in using A.I. music tools, it seems like there are a few that are pretty good, but generally A.I., at least
as it relates, if we're thinking about the way mid journey or stable to fusion creates imagery, you know, a lot of that stuff looks really realistic and could basically you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between something that was shot professionally and something that majority put together sometimes.
But with music, it seems like we're not quite there. Have you found that to be true for yourself? Like, how is A.I. really helpful in the music world right now versus like, where are we going?
So I think that there are a number of I'm sort of the more professional and there are some AI tools that assist people with like virtual mixing, like A.I. mixing.
But even then, they're not they're not really great. They make some odd choices with all of the studio kind of stuff. There is like a bunch of A.I., you know, enhancers, I guess, or, you know, things that we think of AI doing. Like it's going to make your job easier, but really it's just kind of honing in on a couple of things and kind of getting there on the creation side.
I think that a lot of the stable diffusion audio stuff sounds interesting and cool there is, but there is like this, like it gets really murky in the middle, you know what I mean? Like, there's not a lot of definition in that sort of center frequency where it is because it's stable diffusion. So it's being a little fuzzy in that area.there's a lot of them that are out there. And I would actually tell I would actually, yeah. Kind of warn people on that front. There's a lot of sites that are popping up recently that I've seen that claim to be A.I., but really what they are is they're just loop, you know, sort of like, yeah, they're just like they're basically loop masher.
So that's all that's, you know, there's a bunch of loops and they kind of like put them together in random order. So yeah, based off of like you put in a key or a genre and it just grabs a bunch of loops and assemble something for you. And the reason that I say to be wary of that is that you, you might end up putting something that you think is A.I. generated up on to like your YouTube channel or something.
You might end up with a copyright strike because they're using essentially a copyrighted loop from somewhere else. And, you know, I it's happened to me a couple of times where I've used a loop off of a site called Splice, which is, you know, kind of like, I guess epidemic music or any one of those like, you know, you can get a drum loop from here and and put it on.
You can use a copyright free. But somebody previously had copyrighted that thing. So, you know, I'll end up with a copyright strike basically based off of like some high hat or, or drum loop. So it's really annoying. That's so funny. It's so interesting to me that A.I. music has not caught up with AI images and and videolike and it's not to say that there aren't innovations that are incredible, like, you know, go listen to like a Drake song that never existed, you know, like that.
That's amazing that that can even exist. But it I never would have guessed that A.I. visuals would have become believable before A.I. generated music. It's so interesting to me.
Yeah. I mean, I think I think give it this year. I think that I think that this year there will be some or not this year, I'm sorry, 2024. I think that's something that we will definitely see in 2024 is like is a lot of that that fuzziness kind of starting to dissipate more and more and more even sooner.
Like that's as you know, that's gotten from large to now has gotten, you know, significantly better than where it was. So
So you came out to L.A. and then what made you want to leave?
Did you leave before go? I was like, Yeah, no, I mean, my wife and I, we had kids, and I'm sure that anyone who has spent any significant amount of time in L.A. and has looked at the housing market knows that, you know, it's it's pretty bad. So. So yeah, after we stuck around for a year, you know, had moved out to the valley by that point.
We're in Glendale and at some point it was just sort of, you know, like, why are we why are we here again? Is this is this, is this fun anymore? Is this you know, I mean, I'd done I think, like over 12 or 14 years and, you know, working in the industry and, you know, I mean, yeah, I was just I was tired by the end of it.
So there's only there's only so many like a few Fridays and, you know, 13 hour days that, that you can, you know, 13 if you're lucky that you can put up with before you're just sort of like, I don't want to do this anymore. I think I'm I think I'm done. So I'm curious because it has certainly seemed like that the unsub's unsustainable nature of Hollywood has you know, it's continued.
And there's been this revolving door of just new talent that'll just come in and like, replace the burnt out folks. And it's just like this, you know, ever evolving thing. But it seems like this year was almost an inflection point in many ways for the industry. And kind of a reaction to the the labor concerns and challenges that have been popping up around here.
And I know I gets a lot of the the the blame for that. But, you know, the truth is like, for example, the writers strike, for example, right. There hadn't been any halfway decent examples of air generated films or scripts or anything like that until after the writers strike had already been voted on and started. You know what I mean?
Like, it definitely got, you know, shoehorned into the larger conversation. But, you know, I'm curious about if we're just thinking about the future of the industry. Do you think it's just going to continue in these patterns and we're going to, you know, have stories like what you're talking about where, you know, you spend some time, you're really enthusiastic that over time you just want something more sustainable or do you think that really this is like a I guess, a seismic shift that's happening in the entertainment industryin terms of well, in terms of just like straight L.A. industry town, I heard a thing when I was living there and definitely saw it as well inthat L.A. changes every seven years. Like, you know, it's like every seven years. And that happened to me with like, I lived on Melrose for a long time. And just between that, from the time that I started there started or lived there until the time that I left, it's like every store had completely changed. Like there were a couple of, like, standouts, like Astro Burger is still there and will always be there for all time.
But, you know, for the most part, like just yeah, everything everything changes and and moves there so and including people. So I think that you know it is an industry that it has its you know it's long term people and it has a bunch of people that that aren't, that aren't long term. So you know you're either on this like two year like industry thing and then you kind of vanish or ten year or seven year or whatever it is in terms of what all of this means.
Because, you know, you brought up the writers. The actors were another one, too, that I think that I became an inflection point in that strike as well. But the actors were never really opposed. A They just wanted to be paid like that was they didn't say no. They were just I mean, there were definitely a contingent of them that that weren't into the idea of like a an avatar acting for them.
And for the most part, that argument was really more about payment than anything by extras getting scanned in to be digital extras. Totally agree with all of that. I think that where we are in terms of AI filmmaking is that we are it's just it's a new medium. Like right now the larger established industry is trying to make heads or tails out of like, how is this going to affect us?
What's going to happen with all of this? You know, how are we going to control it, manage it, etc., etc.. Meanwhile, most of the people that are making A.I. films don't give an F. Well, they really don't. They're not thinking about like, you know, how how am I going to get this bought by Paramount? You know, they're interested in making their own thing, finding their own distribution and paths via the Internet.
I mean, a couple of people are obviously talking about like, wouldn't it be great to get a Netflix series out of this? And I think that's that's probably the first place that you're going to see. This is, you know, something on an animated level of like, I'm not knocking Bob's Burgers but like something on that, you know, of that level of like animation not not knocking Bob's burgers so but but something like that I could see being picked up.
I used to say that it would be something like on Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, but I don't know if that even exists anymore. I cut cable a long time ago, so you know that that's still there. I don't even know.
I mean, I'm sure it is, because every now and then we'll watch a show and we'll have like the adults who have like logo animation at the beginning.
So at the very least, as a production company, I know it's still Kik. And so yeah, I kind of feel that that's pretty much where we'll see that at some point soon. Like love, death and robots a little bit. Is Ren picking like not necessarily animation, but where it's like each episode is its own kind of thought outshow.
I would I would love to see that. I mean, I would. I would yeah. I would die to see like that happening right now. I think a couple of people have been trying to sort of centralize is I film weekly, that sort of thing. But yeah it hasn't really there hasn't really a hub really hasn't developed. I think a lot of it too might have been the, the first couple of people that were trying to put it together weren't necessarily doing it out of the interest of the audience.
It was more self-serving. So I do think that eventually that will come together. So
it's definitely changing and unlocking new opportunities for artists. I think it is changing things, but, you know, I feel like we've seen like prompt mastering positions open up and I'm curious, what other positions do you think will be open to artists with these AI tools being available?
Well, I mean, I just I posted one yesterday in my community Feed the Door Brothers, who I really, really like those guys door brothers dot com. They are AI video and video and you know artists basically so they just had a position for an AI animator, you know for music videos. So I think we're definitely going to be seeing that happening a lot more.
Yeah, that's the prompt. The prompt engineer. I was just out a as you saw a panel a couple of days ago where I guess somebody had mentioned that that's starting at least in the advertising world, that $90,000 a year, it's like, wow, I'm saying, yeah, yeah. I do think that that is a very short lived job. Like the prompt the prompt engineer is not going to last very long as the labs get better at just natural language.
Like, yeah, prop engineering's going to that's going to vanish as title. So unless you're like your boss's son and. Yeah, exactly. It feels like cramped engineer is really it's an art director with a sub like a sub skill is really what a prompt engineer is in my mind. It's like someone that has some sort of visual output that they are going for or that has been communicated to them.
And now they're trying to figure out how to ask robots to give them that output essentially. And so there's like, you know, tools and techniques to to extract that. But generally speaking, it's it's something that, you know, is it always just falls back on your own creative taste in your ability to, you know, extrapolate meaning from images, which is interesting.
And then you go, okay, 9000 for an art director. Is that a good salary or is that low? And that's interesting to think about. And I think pricing in general is an interesting conversation to have when it comes to AI because it's all new. And so even when we are, you know, being contracted for different videos for a client like it's a little bit like what are what do we charge?
Like, what's the rate for this right now? And we're kind of setting the that precedent, I guess. Yeah. So what do you think about that?
Well, that's that's one of those things. There's always, like, that kind of that freelance like rate, like, because that's that's something that I, you know, I fight with even having experience with it.
I know that probably a lot of people watching this probably wrestle with as well is like how much of my worth? Because inherently as artists, you always think that you're worth less than you actually are always like whatever, whatever number you're thinking at a zero like, and you know, you have to really think about it in terms of like, how long is this realistically going to take me and really break it down into that hourly rate and I mean, honestly, like my advice to know I don't actually out of zero, that's might be a little too much in terms of like I have $7,000 an hour on.
But I mean I honestly look at, you know, other professional, you know, industries and sort of figure out where you I mean, how much like find out how much it costs to shoot a wedding. That's a photographer at a wedding. That's they are charging that amount with the little extra wedding bonus put in their charge that, you know, honestly, like I then figure out how many hours that year it really will take you to do a project, because we always tend to underestimate it as well.
And I think that I has that problem of people like, you just propped it and it's done. It's like now there's so much more that you still need to do after generating an image. I mean, and then just, you know, your overhead as well. If you're doing something professionally, you're probably going to have to run through Topaz.
That's machine time. That's, you know, no software time, that's all of this other stuff factor. All of that stuff in style. Make it expensive. That's what I say.
one of the best pieces of advice I ever received as a creative person, I was just sitting in a room with somebody and they were they just said, I doubled my rate yesterday and the client said nothing and I love that so much.
And I was like, I'm going to try that. And I wouldn't experimented and I doubled my rate and nothing happened. They just said yes. And you're not going to get that every time. But really, every single time that I've I've thought, should I charge more? Sure. What the heck, Let's charge more. Yeah. It's not always a yes to that, you know, let's say doubled amount, but usually it's a negotiation that's much higher than what I was originally going to settle for.
So like, right. Yeah. I'd say shoot high if you're in these conversations like shoot high and then negotiate your way back to, you know, a lower amount if it makes sense. Yeah, I think that the inherent fear is always like the bird in hand thing that most artists have is like, I've got a client on the hook.
I'm going to ask him for this amount of money or that's two things like because they always come to you with like, What's your rate? And I think the artist will always think like, if I don't, if I go too high, they're going to walk away from me and I'm going to lose this job. But if that if they don't come back and correct with just like, it's a little bit much, I'm thinking this instead.
If they do just go with you like you don't you didn't have that. You don't want to work for that job. You don't want it. Yeah, you don't want that job because they're probably going to come in so lowball on that or, you know, yeah, it's just going to be something somebody that's not communicative like already. So yeah, just you don't, you don't want it.
It's fine. Like throw out your, throw out your, your, you know, throw your fee like honestly, then do it without any kind of a do it with conviction, I should say. That's really, really good advice and honestly, so I've put together some training in the past for visual effects artists, you know, who are trying to get into the industry.
And one thing that we've seen across the board is that whenever you become more technical, there's usually a pay increase. So for example, a video editor typically doesn't make as much as a visual effects artist who doesn't make quite as much as a technical director. And so it's like this idea that the more tacky and the more advanced in the technology you are, the the more you can sustainably make in the industry and the more, you know, rarer it is to find somebody with those skills, you know.
So for example, like we're just talking about prompting in mid journey, you know lots of people know how to prompt while imagery but not a lot of people know how to take majority images for example and you know, edit them in Photoshop how to lay that out into an advertisement, how to write, you know, turn those into, you know, concepts, trailers through their skills and editing and sound design, all those things.
So it's almost like this technical leveling up that you can do that really can increase your rate and and really just, I think think about what, what is hard to learn that I actually think is play and really push into that. Yeah and maybe a lot of people watching this probably feel that way you know I know I feel that way whenever I watch your channel, Tim, I'm just like, I'm watching it and it's like, it's like I'm watching, you know, an episode of like cartoons again, because I'm just so excited to like, see, like what this new technologycan do.
I can attest to that. You're he's a big fan. And so, like, I feel like there's a level of advantage that a lot of people who are watching this right now probably have because you actually really enjoy pushing into learning the tech side of things and these A.I. tools in a way that other people will have to learn it out of necessity.
And I think those are two very different worlds to be had. And, you know, you want your work to be or you want other people's work to be your play. Like, that's such a powerful advantage for sure. The other fun thing, I think with where we are right now in I mean, everybody that's probably watching this is is already well has already you know is well down the rabbit hole of AI.
But you know that's one thing that I really want to recap, I guess as we move into 2024 because we're still so early into all of this. I think what's kind of neat about this, as you were speaking about, you know, being, you know, niching down essentially in terms of your profession, is that like right now, like they're like nobody knows what's going on.
So you can really you're free to take whatever skills you have in, you know, compositing, let's say, 3D. It doesn't even necessarily have to be technical filmmaking stuff. You could actually figure out ways to incorporate other aspects of, you know, your talents in, bring it into AI and really just kind of make up your own your own new position.
You know, like, I mean, you can call yourself right now whatever you want, as long as you can kind of somehow manage to. It's like the old art school thing, like if you're, you know, writing a paper on some piece where it's all just, you know, you're all just kind of B.S. in it anyway. It's like you're like.
So, I mean, that's what we all do, right? So, I mean, like that, you know, I don't know if I want to say that necessarily. Yeah, but I mean,
I hear what you're saying and all this stuff is new. And I think maybe to just push back against any misconceptions, it's not like there are secret rooms at these major studios where they really know something about the future of creativity that we don't like.
We get we get phone calls constantly of the biggest people in Hollywood, and they're like, What? What's happening? Can you just explain it? Because we have no idea. And it's like, how how do you not know what's happened? Like, like feels like if anyone would know what's happening, you would know, But it's just not the case. And so it's really cool, though, because I think that what that means is the the playing field is very level right now, very low.
And maybe that kind of transitions us into another question that I wanted to ask you, Tim. I was recently chatting with a friend and he was just like, hey, you know, be be completely honest with me. Is it just too early? You know, should I just wait? And, you know, over the next six months, 12 months until everything is just transitioned over, we can just straight up prompt into no, let's say, mid-thirties video tool that will come out.
And, you know, I want, you know, a very specific scene and you're directing the action and it's almost like having the most specific stock footage library in history, you know, should I just wait until that happens or should I push into this now? And in my advice at the time was, listen to it now, because you know, you're going to open those early doors now and then you'll be solidified whenever anybody will be able to step in future and do that type of thing.
But I'm curious about your take on that. You know, do you feel like it's a little early for practical application or do you think like right now is actually the best time to be getting into the world of? No, I absolutely think it's
the best time to jump in right now as you're going to be developing skills in a portfolio that are going to put you six months out ahead of the, you know, the person that starts when it's ready.
The other thing about when it's ready is that's always going to be a sliding scale. That's always going to be six months or down no matter what. Like it will never really hit the point of some, like I think of like Kubrick, like, you know, Stanley Kubrick and A.I., who actually I think would actually have a blast with all of this stuff.
But, you know, as a perfectionist, like him or his personality type, you know, you're always going to be trying to push the envelope, you know, make it to the next day. I mean, Kubrick would be in with like over at the runway headquarters, like yelling at all of their developers from like, I want this shot specifically, but most of us don't have that power.
I think, yeah, it's always going to be like this. It's it's six months away. It's six months away. And, you know, you're never going to be satisfied. So just start doing it now, like and work within the limitations. I always go back to that, that thing of Kevin Smith from Clerks. Why was Clerks in a convenience store?
Because that's where he worked. That's what he had access to. So that's where he shot, you know, like I love all of those, like nineties filmmakers, like the that explosion, nineties filmmakers like Robert Rodriguez was another one that, you know, he shot he shot with what was around him. Like his dolly was a wheelchair because he had a wheelchair.
And that's how I feel like with all of all of our A.I. tools right now is like there are the limitations. Sure. But those limitations don't necessarily have to box you in. Those limitations can be opportunities to figure out creative ways to continue to tell your story.
Yeah, and I think being a generalist and knowing these other tools and how like when there's a new update and where that lives within the pipeline, I think there's a lot of value in that.
And so hopping in now, like you said, and like learning when it does progress and three months from now, wherever it is, you're going to have so much more, so many more tools to work from and to utilize within that context of that project. So I agree with you. That's where I really what I love about where we are right now is that, you know, you see the people that are doing like, you know, mid journey images that I'm bringing them into like blender and doing all their crazy blender things.
Others that are bringing them into after Effects, doing their crazy after effects things. And you know, there is like everybody is bringing their own, Yeah. Their own outside talents in to work on their Yeah. To work on their projects and making everything individualized, you know. Absolutely. It's actually really funny. I was just putting together a lesson for our course about pitch decks and I did a deep dive into the Duffer Brothers who, you know, they directed Stranger Things, one of the biggest TV sensations ever.
Right?
And it's really interesting because, you know, they're kind of renowned for having this really interesting pitch with Stranger Things where, you know, it was called Montauk at the time. And I was like, really cool, like, you know, eighties looking book that they put together. And it was really good, like very creative. But the assumption sometimes can be that like they just like through charisma and personality and just a great idea just showed up at Hollywood, dropped it on some executive's desk and the executive gave them a high five and they like got after it.
And I think a lot of creative artists are wanting that to happen one day, which is like, that's a noble goal, to want to be a part of a big project like that. But what we fail to realize is that most of the time people creatively level up. And so, you know, if we're talking about the Duffer Brothers, they started out by literally making short films in college now, right?
The short films they made in college make my short films in college look ridiculous because they were just wicked talented at the time and really had that attention to storytelling and detail. And and it was very clear that, like, there is something special here and in the way that they are putting these things together and, you know, it took them through creating, I think it was like six short films that were really good and high budget until they got to working on their first feature, which was pretty good.And then they started doing some collaborations with Robert Rodriguez or not Robert Rodriguez with him, Night Shyamalan on a series that he was producing and that kind of got him into television, you know, led to Stranger Things. So that was a long winded way of saying it. Always seems like creative people are who are very successful, were always very connected to their love of storytelling at the micro level and that helped them unlock the macro.
And I think like filmmaking is that micro. It's like your ability to put together a concept now that lives in any world and to tell a compelling story that goes viral or whatever is. It's not easy because it's hard to be a good storyteller. But in terms of the, the limitations that are there, yeah, the the you don't have to ask permission now.
You don't have to get in somebody to give you $50,000 to make a short film like you can just do. It also
allows you to put in your reps. I feel like repetition creates like more success and you learn from those mistakes and so you iterate to to not perfection, but to finding your voice. Right? And so I think A.I. really allows people to put in so many more reps because you don't have to have a studio and all these tools.
No, I absolutely agree. The the point about permission, I think is a is a pretty powerful one as well, that there is a artist that I really liked by the name of David Mack did a graphic novel called Kabuki. So he used to pass out these these blank fliers. I've been meaning to sort of rip it off, put it on in the channels.
Well, these like fliers that you could cut out, you could cut it out, laminate it, and you just it was your artistic license and you were allowed, you know, you could you could print it out, laminate it, put it in your pocket so that, yeah, you're allowed to do whatever you want, like and I think that that's a very that's what's kind of really powerful about this, this current place is that you can do whatever you want and you don't and you have the ability to do.
You have the technology to be able to do that as well. I really want to spend some time talking about this new year and just, you know, the evolution of technology and art. And I guess if we kind of go back to what you were saying about Los Angeles earlier, you know how the whole city changes about every seven years.
And we've seen that with different technologies that have progressed even in the past. You know, the move from analog to digital, you know, from you know, classic distribution to streaming. I really like that seven year rule because it does feel like it takes about that amount of time to fully embrace something. Would you say that something like that timeline makes sense or the adoption of A.I. in in Hollywood?
Like, are we looking at it's 2023, you know, by 2030 or is age is going to be somewhat of the norm as it relates to filmmaking? Like, where do you see things progressing?
I, I mean, no crystal ball for me, but I think that industry is going to move much slower than A.I., and I think that A.I. is going to be a force its hand, like it will have to adopt faster that it wants to.
But, you know, I mean, I was there for the turn over from, you know, HD cam to, you know, from tape to digital. And like, I mean, there were machine room operators and, you know, I mean, there were, you know, people people were annoyed and angry, you know, and and really drag their heels, you know, to before before that, you know, that transition finally happened.
So that's that's not going to be a choice this time around. It'll move too fast for I mean, yeah, industry will have to catch up as that's actually what it comes down to.I really wonder too, because it seems like a lot of the the strife that's happening in Hollywood ultimately goes back to Netflix. And what I mean by that is, you know, it feels like Netflix turned Hollywood into a tech industry.
And it was that shift in the way in which content is consumed and distributed that shook things up. And we've seen that as the industry transitioned into a tech industry, they weren't able to figure it out. Exactly. And that, you know, explains, I think, a lot of the box office bombs and, you know, some of the challenges that have been popping up this year.
I guess in light of that, maybe we could get into the nuts and bolts here of, you know, how specific jobs might change. Let's just be practical, like in the next 1 to 2 years. So, Tim, maybe we can just list out a few job roles and maybe you can just off the top of your head think about some of the ways in which they might change a little bit in the next couple of years.
So from a practical standpoint, I think that like there are there are some technologies that are going to assist people in terms of like if you're ADP, for example, like, yeah, I'm sure that there's going to be some kind of AI assisted focused polling system that, you know, there's probably if you're an editor or you're an AP, for example, I don't know if it's it's been a while since I've checked it out, but I'm sure that there's some kind of face tagging thing that will pretty much like auto log a lot of like your stuff so that you don't have to have a PR sitting there going through every daily and and figuring, figuring stuff
out. Yeah, yeah. Those in terms of new, entirely new jobs. Yeah. Well, what do you think? What's referral warrants. Well, let's figure it out. Let's all of Hollywood on this podcast. What if we list out jobs and you tell us, how do you think so? For instance, like a director, how do you think a director's job might change in light of this?
Like, new A.I.? Yeah,
I mean, you know, you could probably I mean, just alone. I think you will. A generation of filmmakers coming up that. Do you ever see the behind the scenes stuff for Alien Ridley Scott would do what they call is Ridley Graham's. They were like drawing essentially. It was like he storyboarded the entire movie. He wrote it out like a comic book.
Basically. George Miller, when he had Fury Road, sort of famously didn't have a script. It was all just storyboards. So it was all visual, which is why that movie is so visual. But I think that that's something that we might see in the future as well, is filmmakers that are coming up right now, you know, utilizing the tools that we have and being able to essentially, you know, shoot and pre-viz the entire movie, you know, through A.I. before they even step on set.
That may happen in two years. Who knows? Yeah, it's already happening. I definitely could see that that's happening, especially like I mean, we've talked to a few directors who were like, training their own laurel models with actors and in scenes or with like the set, you know, and then prompting for what they want each shot to look like.
And it's like, looks pretty good, you know, I think it's already happening. Yeah, I totally agree. And I feel like directors abilities to their creative vision, it's never been easier to communicate. Hey, I want it to look like this, you know? And this, whether it's to your costume designers or your set, you know, designers, like, like really like across the board, like, visually, you can communicate that very, very easily.
Now. And it's not perfect, you know, at least the iterations that we have right now. You know, this one's prompted imagery. You know, it's like a back and forth process to get it to give you what you're looking for. And even sometimes, you know, you still can't quite get that specific shot composition, whatever. And so, you know, it's going to be an iterative process to get there.
But it does feel like even right now, directors are embracing the technology. I just think it's just the journey alone, I think gets you so close to like I mean, how many times on I'm sure you guys have run into it on the client side and I know that it happens on the directorial side as well is the phrase I'll know it when I see it.
And that's the most infuriating phrase ever because it's like, okay, you guys, we're going to go dig for this for a while. But I mean, even just with mid journey, that is that's going to save an immense amount of time because it's just sort of like, okay, here's my laptop type in words and you know, and let me know which ones you like and which ones you don't like.
So yeah, I know that's never going to actually happen. Like they're never actually to type in the it's, it's still going to be still, still. No, I do love that though, you know just that I, I know it when I see it. That used to be just a such a frustrating experience because it just it basically means they don't have creative direction or they have like maybe just more of a feeling that they're trying to unlock.
And it's like, how do you put in the words feelings? But it is interesting because I do feel like, you know what, some reason innovations like, you know, the new stable diffusion turbo that like some people are getting it to create like 150 images a second. You know you can basically just you know, type in a loose prompt and then see a, you know, 10,000 pictures potentially, and then you'll know it when you see it because you'll see it.
And there's another version generating faster than you can type. That's insane. Exactly. It's wild. Maybe one more group of folks that I would love to talk about is screenwriters specifically. So maybe I can I can start with kind of where we've kind of had conversations with and what we believe. And I would be curious about what you think terms.
So, you know, I really feel like people that have the ability to communicate a story or a an idea for a story and push that forward have possibly the most power in this transition to the artificial intelligence revolution. And so it's really interesting because in one sense, it's very true that for me at least, that in the next couple of years, these air language models will more than likely be able to create very good scripts like that.
Just seems like an inevitability, but it's the people that can have the vision to those stories, to edit those stories and then convince people to get excited and to collaborate on those story ideas that really, really have a lot of power. It seems like writers, especially in television, have have had that ability in the past. And so a lot of the fear, I think, for screenwriters, I would say like your job is changing, but you're going to have a lot of power if you really press into this going forward.
Do you agree with that sound like how do you I think things will change.
I do. I mean, I think the WGA got it right. You know, while, you know, the strike ended correctly in that here it is. You can use it if you want to. You can't be mandated to use it. We can't Yeah, we can't force you to use it.
So. Correct. Take their I think that we'll see what ends up happening. I mean I think that no matter how great, you know, prompting gets, it's still going to be the, you know, of the screenplay, let's say ten years from now. It's still going to be the still going to be take taking the the median of like all of the screenplays and kind of putting it together.
So you're not going to really be able to you know, you won't be able to prompt something that really zigzags super hard. I can't think of like the most gonzo movie I've seen recently, but like where, you know, any movie where just like, what is going on, what is happening? Like, you're right, you know, you're probably not going to be able to get.
That was the one that I saw recently that I really did like was
plot thought I which is really kind of more like it doesn't write the screenplay for you although they do have
the component is little bit but
what it really more does is it kind of takes you through essentially a kind of a Save the Cat template where it just it's constantly asking you questions like, you know, who's your main character, what's their big fear?
What are they striving for, Who's your secondary cert? And it just I mean, it's just, you know, on and on it goes. If you ever get stuck, you can hit a little generate button where it'll fill in, you know, stuff for you so that you can answer the question, or at least it'll give you an idea of like, that's what the bot thought, I don't like that, so I'm going to change this.
So is this concept like it's just it's this constantly questioning you with and I mean it very much is again, a template that is, you know, save the cat or any of the other 10,000, you know, 3 to 5 structure templates that exist. But it really helps hone in for, I would say like a non seasoned writer or maybe even a seasoned writer.
Like just those questions that that you need answered to have a strongly story, you know. Yeah, that's, that's really helpful and that's a cool way of going about it. It's like I'm here as a creative assistant, you know, help you get over any creative hurdles that pop up. But I still want you to bring your creativity to the table, right?
I really like that experience off the top of my head. Like, I don't see like being able to prompt a harmony Kitchen movie. Like, that's just not you know what I mean? Like, that's like, like any one of his gonzo, like Gummo movies or what was the one that he just he did one that was like an A-1 the beyond something like you was there was something that was at Cannes this year that was like an eye film, but it really wasn't an anti film.
It was just shot on like a night vision camera. I saw that I, I only followed it a little bit, so but yeah, I mean, like, you can't prompt that, you know what I mean? Like, that's not going to anything that weird is not going to, is not going to come up in a prompt. So, you know, what's interesting is there's a lot of convincing that needs to happen to get a project out into Hollywood.
We are having a chat with our team this morning about it, you know, because obviously there's a ton of interest in like, Hey, let's make a feature film. And like, you know, everybody wants that to happen. But there's so much like red tape and so much creative friction that can happen between coming up with a rock star idea, you know?
And like for examples of those ideas, you can check out the I think the blacklist came out today which is like all the scripts in Hollywood that didn't get picked up that like aren't really awesome. They kind of create a list each year and you can see like, you know, there's all these ideas that are awesome. If they would be turned into films that just will never be turned into films, and it really feels like A.I. might unlock the ability to even pre visualize what a film might be like so that you can then take it from there and like turn it into something larger.
And, you know, I don't know if that would be an entirely digital experience, but maybe it's, you know, hey, like, let's see, like a crazy, you know, trailer for a film that's like about, you know, the guy with the intersection of like the the French Revolution or something like that. And then like, you see this like wild, you know, film pop up and then, actually that could be an interesting idea.
Let me take this trailer that I created or the smaller idea expand on it. I don't know. It feels like there's just like many opportunities to have these as creative and and really idea machines to help you see potential and extract it. And I don't even necessarily know I know a lot of people get are worried about sort of the you know prompt your own movie you know like sit down you know, and turn on Netflix in ten years and just say, make me maybe a Batman movie starring the Clooney Batman.
But I watch, you know, Heath Ledger as Joker in it or we know whatever it is. And I, I don't I can't necessarily say that won't happen. But I do think that when you start moving into that area, you're moving into something that becomes that that gets away from movies like movies are passive entertainment. You sit there and you watch them and you consume them.
And then video games, of course, are active entertainment. You sit and you are engaged with, you know, with the screen. And so what I really actually honestly foresee happening in ten years or so is going to be is something that is sort of a hybrid of the two of them like that. You know, you'll be able to sort of it's not quite I don't know
I mean, I don't want to predict it too much because God knows tomorrow, like some new technology will come out, be like, of course, that was it. You know, not like Bandersnatch the that was the Netflix Black Mirror thing where it's like, choose your own adventure. I don't think it'll be quite that simplified, but and I don't even know if, like you're going to necessarily one of the things that people have been worried about is like, I want to watch Star Wars, but I'm I'm Luke Skywalker and I don't know I don't know if people are going to be really that interested in that.
I don't I don't see the infrastructure being built to do that because I don't know if enough people would want to. And I want to be like, I wouldn't want to see something like, Yeah, I can see my face all day. I don't want to. But it really feels like, you know, that hyper personalized entertainment experience, kind of two facets to that.
One, just figuring out what you want to watch right now, it's challenging and great. It feels right now like there are too many things to pick from and you just end up watching like reruns of The Office anyway. Yeah. And then number two is really, you know, I think one of the challenges of the adoption of the metaverse, for example, is that it's a very isolated experience.
Yes, you're able to connect with people around the world and that is really, really interesting. But generally speaking, if you're in that metaverse, you're not really with other people who are with you. You know, there's notable exceptions, like if you play like Beat Saber or like one of those games, but like really it's one person having fun and for people looking at them having fun.
And that's the fun part is that they are having fun and you know them like, I don't know, like it's it's not a very captivating experience for, you know, a collective to experience together. And I do wonder with, you know, personalized entertainment, you know, is it really that interesting for me to watch a movie of him starring in the new Star Wars movie?
It is not. I don't know. Yeah, I actually I would personally love that. How do you see I changing audience? It's maybe if not that like what are ways in which you maybe already see audience habits changing and where do you see it continuing to change? I've been saying for a while that weirdly, I think that recommendation systems are going to obviously personalized recommendation systems are going to be in overload.
Actually, weirdly enough, I was just talking about the inverse of that. I think that you're going to see marketing just explode like and like next year once they figure out all of these tools and all of the personalized like, you know, like everybody's like, you know, I'm getting Facebook ads because it's listening to me is giving me that times like 80 is going to be out of control and think that you're going to be really flooded with just a ton of like these.
You're going to be hit hard with all of these personalized recommendations. And weirdly enough, I think the inverse is going to happen on a societal level where we're going to start. Truth is, we're going to start trusting influencers, which is really weird to say. But if you find like and it'll be sort of like, I guess just tastemakers, bloggers, you know, the bloggers may have power again, like actual people that are verified.
We know that that is a person, not an avatar that is going out and finding good stuff and recommending it to us. I think that that's actually going to be more of a trend as we move forward as opposed to doing that for you because we're just going to be getting hit with so much. Yeah, and maybe that's a natural transition kind of as we wrap up here, because I feel like in many ways that is a role that you really do serve in the industry, you know, as the disseminator of like, Hey, you should check this out.
Like, I've actually tested this. Yes, this is what you should use because I feel like if you just went off the marketing alone, you know, whether it's on Twitter or, you know, email blasts or even newsletters that have like paid spots in them that people rent out to tell you what's important. Yeah, you would just it would become too fatiguing.
Yeah. So like, I think the service that you offer the creative community is very valuable. But how are you in light of it seeing, you know, because if you're that person who's, you know, this is maybe all that information I, we, we know because we feel it too. Like how are you coping with that level of fatigue? Because it's every day something new that I have to test and digest and teach and, you know, how are you doing it?
I think better by just reach out to me for a sponsorship sponsored, like instead of paying me. Let's just do therapy now. It's it's exhausting. But I mean, at the same time, I think that the way that my brain works is like, even like it's all state of play, you know what I mean? Like, no matter what. And so even when I am actively trying to, like, I got to take a break, I got to rest for a little while, I'll catch something on Twitter or whatever.
And it's just it just gets me excited again. So, I mean, I'm still like, like, I like I got to take a break. Okay. So I'll just play with this instead of actually do it. And, you know, I mean, it's just yeah, it's there's no, it's I can't help myself. It's. What's your favorite tool right now for play?
Like where are you billions fired. I personally I was playing with is it kyber I this weekend The drawing was so much fun. It's so fun. I love it. Yeah I yeah, they're that one's pretty wacky and weird right now. I've been having a lot of fun with. I mean, honestly, since the peak of 1.0 update, I've been having a lot of fun with that.
I've taken a couple of older tracks that I worked on. I'm actually working on some music video stuff, just as like a fun, creative excuse to revisit these songs that I never got a chance to to do anything with. And what I've really been finding to be a lot of fun currently is that like the text of video stuff has gotten really pretty interesting.
That's definitely leveled up in the last couple of months. Like, yeah, text to video has gotten really solid, creative and interesting. I know that everyone was as always been like, my mid journey image, I want to animate that. But yeah, I'm actually starting to see kind of better and cooler and more fun results from text of video.
Well I have a few rapid fire questions. Let's do it. So to be fair, I asked Chad, UBC to help me come up with these because I didn't have them quite yet. I was like, okay, this is the context. So let's just see what Jack gave us, what movie can you watch over and over again without getting tired of it?
God, there's so many. Is the one that immediately comes to my mind. Is he like any time that he comes on, Like if I catch any part of it at any point in time, I'm watching the rest of it. He Yeah, I'll, I'll go with the more in a modern sense do in his while I'm really looking forward to the you do a movie and that's a three hour movie so yeah that's a commitment to the first 5 minutes.
I've been up there for a while. We went to the theater to watch Dune after like a six mile hike and eating like a pasta dinner. And we were so tired and I'm not. I fell asleep just a little bit, so I feel like I need to watch it again. And Caleb was definitely like in dad mode because the kids next to us had their phone with their lights on and he was like, Excuse me, children get up.
And I was like, I wanted the cinematic experience when I was like, Who are you? I love. It was really funny. I love that. Okay, If you could be any character from a movie, who would you choose? that is interesting. I was going to say Benjamin Button just because I was thinking about him today and I can't remember how that movie does he is he a little baby that dies at the end of it because he starts off with the old little baby and then he grows up into Brad Pitt and then you guys breaking down again.
So, I mean, this is the end of baby. The die is that's kind of dark, isn't it? I thought that was top of mind. You're just like Benjamin, but I've been just thinking about him today. What made you think about Benjamin Button today? I need a back story. I don't. The brain of thought totally hot. So this is how a lot of my the examples on the channel come up is just like you know just random shower thought or say that.
And I'm just thinking know what it might be this problem that I have where you look, you look in the mirror and you see gray hair and you start thinking of Benjamin Button just naturally right was definitely probably something a little bit of that subconsciously going on to be great to De-Age Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's true. Benny If you could eat one food for the rest of your life, what would it be?
the pizza taco that's shoved into a hamburger. It's like a piece of taco hamburger. And if you had a few. Where do you get this? I don't know. I don't know. We're going to have to make it up. Reminds me of that old SNL Taco Town skit that they did. I don't know what? Just like they like.
It just is like a commercial for food. And then it starts out with like a taco and then they wrap it in like taco with beans. And then you just by the end, it gets totally unhinged. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Or if you're having this taco pizza burger, what Chick fil A sauce, would you choose to go with it?
I mean, original. I mean, I'm I'm very basic in that regard. I my standard them they're good and and we need that recipe that you have for your yeah for sure. Yeah. Cool. Okay so I think that's all I have. Caleb, I don't know if you have any last question is where can people see more of your work?
The YouTube.com. Theoretically, media was on Twitter at Theo Media. I knew the guy. but I think I completely forgot because it's like Twitter handles are a bit like phone numbers at this point. I feel like it's like, you kind of know what it is, maybe, but really just go to their site and then just click the link.
Yeah. So yeah, those are the two places that I mostly I do LinkedIn very, very badly and I have virtually no presence on Instagram just because I. Yeah, there's only so much you can do. So you use Tik tok. I so not for, not for this. I did some stuff a while back on the music side and it was I it's okay.
But no I haven't I haven't done any tik tok so I've been kind of thinking about it, but I'm not sure like I don't even do shorts. You guys do shorts, right? We are. Yes, we do. We're wanting to look more into it, right? Yeah, There's more shorts. Yeah, I've been thinking about it in 24, but I mean, at the same time, the audiences are so different now.
I'm moving into YouTube stuff and really boring people, but like, I do feel what maybe the audience can tell us as well. Like, like in terms of shorts versus like, like tik-tok shorts versus YouTube shorts. I think they're just two different. They're due two different animals and I'm too well, I just don't have enough time be able to do like a specific TikTok thing and a specific YouTube thing and then do a regular YouTube thing.
So that's a good question. Yeah, do if ever an audience I want to hear if I want to know if people watch YouTube shorts and enjoy them, if they just watch shorts on TikTok instead. Well, I think that I mean, I don't know about you guys, but if you're just like watching shorts on your own, it's really not the stuff like this.
It's like, you know, it's the random I don't watch like shorts at all on YouTube, so I don't know if like, that's okay. I'm weird. Maybe I'm not normal, you know? I mean, I don't watch them on YouTube, but if I'm like, bored somewhere and I have my phone, like, I'll scroll through them that way. But again, it's never anything that has to do with like, yeah, it's like, it's like funny cat videos and that's what that's what I want to watch.
I like the viral content. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to watch a minute long tutorial on something because. Right. You know what's. Yeah. Exac. Yeah. And I don't want to make a minute long tutorial on something I just like that just sounds exhausting. Okay, here's peak. And this is what you do. Yeah, I got this, but I need now.
Maybe I'll put you to sleep. You just, like, watch a two minute tutorial. Tim Teaching you. Can you just take a nap? Yeah, I was like, I'm just. I love it. Well, Tim, thank you so much for taking the time to be on this podcast and then also to judge the holiday competition. We're good. I know that was deserves.
Hopefully by the time this video is live, we will have those winners announced. And the films were really amazing. Yeah. Ah, they really were. Yeah. It's a real joy to watch those. So congratulations once again to the winner. I don't want to say winners, I should say I don't want to say anything because I don't know if this releases before or after.
So but congratulations to all of them. They were all really great. So I even get to see a few in the drop box that were not, I guess in the runner runner up category as well. So I just wanted to shout the people that you guys didn't make the cut. I may have seen a few of yours as well.
They were. They're they're all really, really stellar. You guys are great filmmakers. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Well, tell them we'll have to do this again sometime soon, but best of luck with your channel. Thank you so much for everything you do for the art world. It's incredibly generous and we can't wait to see what you're able to put together as we get into 2020.
For me, too. Thanks, Tim. Thanks, you guys. You we will see you guys soon.
