Is AI Killing Hollywood? | The Curious Refuge Podcast

Is AI Killing Hollywood? | Episode 01

The Curious Refuge Podcast | Is AI Killing Hollywood?

Welcome to the very first episode of The Curious Refuge Podcast. In this episode, we handle the tough questions surrounding AI Filmmaking. Not only that, but we also talk about some of the best techniques for AI Filmmaking and where to begin.

The Curious Refuge Podcast | Episode 01

Here is a transcript of the podcast:

 I'm Shelby and this is Caleb and we are the founders of Curious Refuge and we're super excited to talk with you today. We are the first online home for AI filmmakers and our hope is to be a refuge for AI enthusiasts and AI artists and artists who are looking to learn AI to have a home where they can learn to contextualize these tools, learn to implement them into their creative fields, and find a community where they can belong and create together.

So today we are super excited to have Caleb here. We both have actually been in the And so we've been working in the, in our education space for many years, working from helping motion designers, learn how to become motion designers, land jobs in that industry, to the effects artists. And so we're now in the AI space.

It's very exciting. So we want So what is AI filmmaking, we want to interview Caleb and, but we want to answer a lot of questions that have been coming up lately. So Caleb, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad you guys were able to fit me in the podcast schedule.

I'm doing great. It's amazing. Uh, yeah. I mean, we have so many questions. I know you and I both have every interview that's come up, it's like the same questions again and again. So we just wanted to facilitate a space. Within our community to answer some of those questions and to give some insight into what we think and what we believe and so Yeah, I have a list here for you.

And so I'm excited to run through these things together And a firstly quick question. What even is a I filmmaking? Yeah a I filmmaking It's a pretty new term, right? Although Hollywood has had some a I tools available up until 2023 the truth is this wider World of AI filmmaking has really just been opened in the last few months here.

And so AI filmmaking can mean many different things, you know, for a VFX artist, AI filmmaking may just be the process of using AI language models to help write Python code to help with your, uh, your workflow and your process. If you are a podcast editor. You may use these AI tools to generate transcripts and to, you know, transcribe your podcast episode into like, let's say multiple languages, for example.

And so, you know, as a filmmaker, as an artist, as a creative approaching these tools, AI is really just a tool that amplifies your creativity. So there's not AI and then also filmmaking. There's filmmaking, which utilizes increasingly more AI tools. That's incredible. You said that AI is a tool to amplify your creativity.

Have you seen that for yourself, your own creativity amplified? Absolutely. Yeah, I feel like these tools, it's almost like adding fuel to whatever creative fire you have. And so if you are super new to the creative world and you've never had the opportunity to put together a project while using AI tools, you can actually put together those first projects and they can look pretty darn good, even with no experience whatsoever.

And then if you're already an artist and you have a ton of experience or just, you know, some experience working in the creative world, then you can create some projects that look very professional and very interesting, uh, very quickly. So I really feel like for me personally, it's been really cool because I have a background in doing some motion design work and VFX work.

And so whenever I take those preexisting skills and then use AI to help amplify them, I'm able to create some pretty cool things. Like I partnered with a student at curious refuge to put together this cool, like alien planet earth project that normally. I would have never been able to put together, and it has like these, like, beautiful photo, realistic CGI animals that are just really cute.

And I never would have been able to tell that story, or at the very least, it would have taken me a long, long time to put that project together, but using AI, I was able to put it together pretty quickly. Yeah. That project is one of my favorites. Amina did an amazing job prompting and curating the imagery there.

It's so cute and willing to it. Uh, you know, it's interesting the way you're saying it amplifies your creative output. It, you know, multiplies, I guess. Um, I've, we've talked about how AI is almost like a creative assistant. In, in to the things you struggle with. Like if you struggle maybe with writing or you struggle with building, you know, the shot list, whatever it is in the creative process, like ai, look at the thing you struggle with most and like AI can be kind of plugged in as a creative assistant for you.

Uh, what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, I've heard it put that AI is actually like working with a hungover assistant. So, you know, whenever you're working with these tools, if you aren't very specific about what you want to get from them, typically that'll give you results that don't exactly meet your creative vision.

And sometimes you're exactly specific with what you want to get. And there's still this back and forth process. And so, yeah, it's absolutely like working with an assistant, but you have to learn how to work with that assistant as if they were a real person, you know, you have to learn their quirks and the things that make them.

Uh, get a certain output that you like versus ones that, you know, art is good. And it really is just a tool that helps you get through those creative hurdles faster. You know, for example, if you are somebody that struggles with getting an idea, like you, you, you can take an idea and you can run with it, but you have trouble coming up with that core idea, well, obviously there's AI tools like chat GPT that can generate a ton of ideas for you, and then you can run with them in whatever direction.

Whereas the exact opposite is also true. Let's say that you're really great at coming up with ideas, but it's harder for you to, you know, flesh that out into a script or a story outline or something like that. Well, now Chats with BT can help you through that creative hurdle. And so at every step of the process of putting together these films, AI tools can assist in the production of whatever creative vision you have.

I love that. Speaking of like films, I want to talk about the virality. of these projects. So, um, you launched the first Wes Anderson Star Wars piece in May. Was that May? And so, I want to talk about that. Like, what was the process of launching that, and how do you get inspired for your next projects? Can you tell us a little bit about what going viral was like?

I want to hear from you. Yeah, that project is really funny. So at the time I was working for an online VFX school called Rebel Way, which was super awesome. And I really was enjoying my job there. Uh, but as these AI tools started popping up, I saw projects like the Harry Potter by Balenciaga videos, and just some of these other kinds of online meme videos that were just, you know, fun to watch having a background in filmmaking and storytelling.

I was just really curious to contextualize these tools. In a narrative way. So I was really curious, can AI actually begin to tell somewhat of a story? And so I use chat GPT to come up with the idea, with the scripts, mid journey, created the images. We use some other tools to, you know, do like head tilts and the voiceover and all of those things.

And really it was an experiment into the strengths and the weaknesses of AI tools. And so I just put it out there, not really expecting it to do anything. It just kind of was like a fun thing. And I went to bed, I had like 200 views and I woke up, it had like over 500, 000 views and had gone like super mega viral.

It was a very weird Saturday. And really over the course of that weekend, news organizations started talking about it. We got picked up in the press and, uh, the Hollywood reporter picked it up. And once that happened, I was like, Oh, wow, this is like a really big deal. And so over the course of the next few days and weeks, it was very clear that there is a huge demand for learning how to create AI generated.

Films. And so naturally, because our background was in education, we put together a bootcamp and, uh, created a four week long experience for people to get acquainted with all of these AI tools. And we've had hundreds of students go through the program up to this point. And it's been just a really cool and rewarding experience.

And it's cool because. We didn't plan for any of this. It just kind of seemed to naturally happen. And so it's really nice that we're able to give people just a stable and optimistic place to learn these tools. And, you know, we're not coming to it because. We're scared of AI or anything like that. We're trying to just show people how these tools are going to empower you and not replace you.

It's funny because, you know, so Caleb and I actually grew up together. We've known each other for many years. I think I met you when I was 11, um, and you have always been the one kind of taking some new skill and implementing it. And uh, specifically with filmmaking, I remember when we were teenagers, um, me and my brothers were like in some of your short films, which is really funny to think about.

But like, with this virality, you know, it's taken you, it's interesting because it's like, oh, you're an overnight success. That's amazing. But it's like, no, you've been doing this as you're like, 15, 16, it's like you've been working for 15, 16 years to become an overnight success. And so I think that's a really interesting story to note because I think it's like, oh, I just have to like show up and, and, and, um, eventually I'll go viral with one thing.

It's like, no, you just put in the work. And I think an interesting quote I heard recently is. When you, um, it's like a piñata, right? Like, so you have a piñata. This is, I think, from Jay Shetty's podcast, so I don't want to take credit for it, but if you have a piñata and you're, you have a group of kids and they're all lined up ready to hit the piñata, right, and it's oftentimes that the kid, the third kid that hits it, they're like, oh, they're so strong and they, they did it and they, all this candy now because that kid is strong, but it's like, it was the compounding Blows of the first kid who hit it five times, the second kid, right, for that third kid to hit it and for the bliss to like, come out of that pinata and whatever the bliss is, the candy, or the success of this video, and so I think, like, that is such a true example of you, like, you have been showing up to learn these skills for years, and that has compounded into, yeah, it's just the right timing, and it took off, and it's just really interesting.

Yeah, and I think My experience working with film projects, video projects created a level of taste and contextualization, like I'm able to see these AI tools and see in the pipeline, like, Oh, I can take this and then put it here. And I feel like if I wouldn't have had that experience, I wouldn't have been able to really have the understanding to know what to do with all of these tools, because it's so many tools, like it's hundreds and hundreds of AI tools.

Like, how do you actually. Keep up with all of these things and contextualize them into like something that's coherent and interesting It's it is a challenge and it takes skill. I'm curious. Does this feel familiar? So this new these new AI tools and how you're implementing them in a filmmaking context Does it kind of feel like when you were a teenager learning after effects for the first time?

Yes. Yeah, totally It's really funny because whenever I was a teenager learning about filmmaking and after effects and things like that I worked as a fry cook at a bowling alley and Whatever things would be slow at the bowling alley. We had these big grease buckets with like, uh, plastic lids. Like they're like those home depot buckets.

And I would just in my breaks or in like the downtime, read like filmmaking books. And I had a laptop that I was borrowing from my school that completely got covered in grease, which is so gross, but I was learning filmmaking and trying to learn visual effects and motion design and how to make videos.

And it does feel very, very similar. You know, I think everyone who's a creative person has had to learn not only the mechanics and the fundamental concepts of their art form, but also the technical side of, you know, the specific tools or applications to achieve, you know, the desired result that they're trying to get, and that's exactly what's happening with AI.

It's just, we're all learning it together at the same time. So it's, there aren't really a lot of people that have. You know, so much experience with AI storytelling that like, you feel like you are, uh, you know, decades behind as, for example, like if I came out here to Hollywood and I tried to make a movie, well, there's people that have been doing it 50 years, you know?

And so with AI, it's like, no, one's been doing this for more than a few months now. Sure. People have tested out the tools and technologies, but from a legitimate, like storytelling perspective, like the, the playing field is super level. And so it's really interesting to, to see. Just the number of projects that are really high quality and the types of people that are putting them out, because it's not like the biggest studios that are putting out these AI projects that are so impressive, it's everyday artists.

And typically they have some sort of art background. I've seen a lot of really impressive work come from people who are traditionally art directors and people that have really refined their creative taste over the years. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Can you share a little bit about, I know, you know, we set up this boot camp and we've had three completed sessions at this point and we're starting our fourth, which is going super well.

We have a ton of students enrolling, which is super exciting, um, but can you talk a little bit about, like, who's taking these workshops? Because I do think AI is opening, um, the world of filmmaking to everyone. It's really democratizing filmmaking, right? So can you tell me a little bit about who's taking these workshops and what are they creating at the end of it?

Yeah, we have the entire gamut of people going through our program. So we have an Academy Award winner, literally like won the biggest award in all of the world related to filmmaking all the way down to an 11 year old girl who is like telling her story for the first time. And so I think it's really cool to see the, the different types of folks that are going through the program.

It's. Yes, the Hollywood industry is out here and, um, you know, folks who are directors, screenwriters, and, you know, uh, have a ton of experience in just the industry, but also a lot of people that work in agencies, work in video production houses are, um, just creative types. Like there's one guy, he's like a janitor, which like is awesome, but he's just always dreamed of like creatively telling stories.

And so he's going through our program. Yeah, that's so cool. And I, we just had a poet join us as well, and I'm like, that's so cool. I can't wait to see, uh, the visual story behind his poetry and see how he You know, curates those images and, and I just, it's very exciting what you can do with these tools. Um, so a bit of a, a question here, uh, for you.

I, I know right now everything is a bit polarizing with AI and there are people that say AI is an art and AI artists maybe don't have, uh, creativity. Um, you know, things along these lines, but like, what are, what are your responses to people who have those schools of thought? AI is art because art is defined not only by the person creating the art, but also the person consuming.

So if art by its very definition is something that is created with human skill and then something that evokes emotion or thought, if it has those two components, then it's art. And you can't just. Look at a computer and get art. You have to use your creative direction to get something from it. So there's a level of skill involved in that.

And if it creates an emotion or thought in someone else, then there you go. You have some art. And so yes, AI generated imagery, video, voices, music, all of these things are art forms. Now, are they different than traditional art forms? Is the way in which we get to the end result different? Absolutely. But at its core, yes, it's 100 percent art and it's just a new emerging art form that, you know, is similar to visual effects.

You know, that was a new emerging art form about 30 years ago and now it's absolutely a huge and, uh, prolific industry that, you know, employs thousands of artists. Yeah, that is so interesting. Can you talk a little bit about Um, maybe a time in history that, I know you're a historian, you have a filmmaking degree and a history degree, which is awesome, and I think, uh, you're really great at contextualizing current events and, and looking at history, um, to find examples of when this has happened before.

So is there any time in history that you can look at that feels familiar to what we're going through right now with AI and this new wave of art and AI? Yes. There's many, many times in which this has happened. This is not the first time that people have been freaked out that this is the death of art.

One is a long, long time ago. So, when you think about paintings, like real, you know, photorealistic, beautiful paintings, like the ones that, you know, uh, we, if you go to the Louvre and walk around, you see. Well, that time, back in the 1800s, there were the Impressionists that started painting. And they started painting in a completely different way.

You know, an impressionist painting, it's just kind of blobby's that come together and it forms these like beautiful pieces of artwork, but at the time, completely rejected because it didn't follow the traditional norms or the traditional techniques in which that artwork was created. And they were ostracized, right?

They were not accepted, but then eventually they're now, you know, heralded as these champions of what it means to be an artist, right? Well, we can take that lesson and see that in many different applications of technology throughout history. So whenever the camera came out, like the actual photo camera, people were freaking out because they're afraid that that was going to be the death of art and everything was going to become mechanical and there's going to be no more human expression.

And of course that was not the case. Photography is an incredibly expressive and beautiful art form that has, you know, unlocked. New art forms like filmmaking, which, you know, it's just a variation of photography that is just sequentially laid out. Right. And then you have VFX, which is essentially at its core in painting onto a recorded image and using digital tools.

And, you know, that was another progression that happened and everyone was freaking out about what that means for stop motion, but like, we still have stop motion projects and we have VFX projects. So the same is going to be true for AI. Now, AI definitely changes the way in which you interface with all of those industries, right?

Like it changes the way you do photography. It changes the way you do VFX. And ultimately the workflow of creating an entirely AI generated project is going to change and update. But at its core as creatives, you know, these tools are, um, they're, they're simply tools and these. You know, industry changing innovations that happened time and time again.

And thankfully humans have embraced them and created just incredible pieces of art that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. And I should note that at the same time, like AI at its core, the code in the beginning was written by humans. So even if it creates something that's beautiful, and if you're able to pull something from that, that is still a human who wrote a code.

That yes, it's training itself, but you're still interfacing with that code, the human created to create something new, something original, something beautiful. And so it's still a back and forth process with a human created thing. And, and so there's still a lot of beauty to that, that I think sometimes gets lost in these larger conversations.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. What do you say to people? Cause I know many times we've had the question of. Well, it's just, um, reimagining artwork from other artists. It's sealing art. We've had that so many times. So how, how do you respond to that question? Well, it's really interesting because Yes. It's trained on other people's artwork and I'm sure there will be legislation and all of the rules and things like that, that will help to figure out like what is actually allowed versus not allowed, uh, generally it seems like, uh, at least with the models that, uh, we have right now, like with mid journey, for example, that it's not like there were like laws on the book saying you couldn't train computer algorithms on your AI project.

So. In many ways, it doesn't seem like they broke the law, but now there could be laws going forward and we'll figure all that stuff out. Uh, but whenever an AI project is putting something together. It's pulling from like billions of inspiration sources. It's not pulling from one inspiration source. So it's not looking at, for example, uh, just like one painting and generating this, you know, very specific painting that looks like that painting with only one small variant.

It's creating something that generally as a human, if you looked at it, you would have no idea where it came from. Now, of course you can prompt in the style of somebody else, but then that is more falling into parody or even. Uh, you know, just mimicking someone because you like a specific style and, you know, in terms of licensing and, uh, creative attribution and things like that, that's a different conversation.

Uh, but generally these AI art pieces are looking into their experience onto what they're trained on and creating something that's an amalgamation of all of those things that, you know, wouldn't have existed any other way. And that is exactly how we as artists approach art as well. We draw on our past experiences.

Think about our emotions, how we've interacted with the world, and then we put something out there that, you know, is, is hopefully new and original, but at the same time, very much grounded in what we've been trained on. Yeah, and, and you mentioned, um, parody, and, and that there's probably gonna be new legislation that we've never seen before, and we're all figuring that out together, and with these, you know, viral videos you've made, you, we have used the likeness of, Uh, celebrities in underneath that idea of this is parody, right?

So what are your thoughts on using the likeness of artists and, and, you know, AI scanning artists and actors and like using them in future projects? I just want to talk about that for a little bit. And what are your thoughts and where do you see that going? Yeah, I mean, we can address like all of those things.

So I guess first would be scanning artists. So I know like one of the big sticking points out here in Hollywood is. You know, scanning someone's face, an actor, usually it's not as much like the Margot Robbie's of the world, but like background actors and scanning their face and then, you know, Warner brothers, for example, could then just, you know, if they needed to populate like a busy cafe, they could just use that background actor and they paid them.

500 bucks to come in on a Saturday. And then that person's basically out of work or whatever, uh, for the future. The truth is that's a really, it's not a real problem. And what I mean by that is you can generate, we can go to mid journey right now. I can generate a billion people that have never existed that look photorealistic right now.

And I can put those over a 3d model of a face in unreal engine, and I can create all of these people that never existed. So while it absolutely is real, that people could. Be scanned and be used in that way. The truth is, even if Hollywood was not able to scan people's faces, they still could have background actors that, you know, are populating a scene.

So it's not a real problem in the sense of it doesn't, the realities of where the technology is, doesn't match like the, what the technical implementation would be for the studios. Um, the second would be like scanning, like big name actors, like. Margot Robbie, for example, and, you know, taking her and then, you know, Warner brothers just gives her, I don't know, like a million dollars or something, and she's off, you know, at the beach or whatever, uh, while they were making like the next Margot Robbie movie, will we get there one day?

We probably will. Uh, but should those actors have the right to decide over their, their likeness for Warner brothers to, you know, make that movie of course. And so lifetime contracts and things like that are going to be a big. Uh, part of, you know, this industry that lawyers will be working out over the next few years, as we all figure this out.

Um, and yeah, in terms of parody, you know, for example, Saturday Night Live, they, uh, will put all their actors, you know, they'll, they'll put them and try to emulate other people. And, you know, they've actually done a Wes Anderson parody in the past where they had people dress up as the actors, emulate their voices, things like that.

And so, you know, even with our Wes Anderson projects, there's already a precedent. In real world creation. That utilizes, you know, likeness for the sake of making a comedic or an educational point. And so, um, yeah, that's just kind of how I view that. But, you know, generally I would say if you are, you know, monetarily going to create a narrative project that's not grounded in parody or experimentation that's covered by existing laws, then just reach out to the actor and, uh, try to get their likeness.

What do you think about jobs being replaced due to AI? Because even we were talking a bit about. Uh, background actors and how, um, you know, yes, they want to scan them, but like, you're kind of like, they don't even really need to. What do you do there when there's people who make a living as background actors, right?

So, um, what are your views on AI kind of replacing artists and taking jobs and there's a lot of conversation going on about that right now. What are your thoughts? Yeah. So, AI, really, the most helpful use of the technology is related to laborious and mechanical aspects of the art creation process. And so, if there's anything that you do that is a repetitive task...

Or tedious in any way, then AI is really ripe for coming in and disrupting that industry. Now, as humans, we like stability and sometimes we like having a job that we can just clock in and clock out. And it's somewhat the same thing. You know, maybe there are creative changes, you know, from project to project, but generally it's, you know, we know exactly what to expect.

And the truth is that world that we were living in is now changed forever. And so now, whenever we think of ourselves as artists, we also have to think of ourselves as lifetime learners who are learning these tools. And so I'd say to anyone who is concerned that AI is coming for your job. The first thing is it's probably not coming for your job as quickly as you think.

A lot of these AI tools, you know, they're interesting for online experiments and, you know, Content that's much more short form and, you know, easier to consume. But as it relates to the silver screen, there's a lot of innovations that still need to happen to, to make AI, uh, super mainstream in that regard.

Uh, but you know, the truth is it is going to come, but I think that for so many people, AI is actually going to elevate. Their experience and, you know, for a background actor, well, I was just watching a tech demo this morning of someone that used an iPhone to completely put in a new actor. And they like were like, had an actor sitting there and they're moving around and they're like this fictitious robot.

I'm like, well, you just now have a background actor that can be the lead in something and they can work with their friends, work with a production company to, to now be a lead. Like not many people aspired to be a background actor. Like we want to bring those people to the forefront. And I think that's what AI does.

It's bringing everybody to the forefront and empowering them to create really impressive projects. It's just, you know, like any other creative field, you, the responsibilities on you to get that project out there and to stay up to date on the latest trends and techniques and things like that. So I don't think that it's going to replace people who are willing to learn.

It will replace people who are just wanting to sit on their past experience and not. Uh, get up to date with the latest tools, but for those of you who are just super, uh, you know, uh, mindful to, to learn and just grow, I think you have nothing to worry about, you know, thinking about the, that innovation of the iPhone and that video you watched today, and, um, then being able to just be a lead actor, just wherever they are in the world, it's really, amazing to think about how, you know, there might, I don't know, for me, I kind of can see like there being many more indie studios and indie filmmakers and indie projects coming out globally.

You know, all over we'll just see like really awesome projects. from just a small team of people versus, um, this huge studio model. And, and I don't necessarily, I don't, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I don't necessarily think the studio model's going anywhere. I think that'll still be there and we'll see that.

But I do think there, we might see like a lot of indie studios popping up and it's going to, um, move, uh, filmmaking from just being in this spot, but it's going to be, uh, more global and dispersed. So what are your thoughts there? Yeah, I totally agree. I think that. The idea of having to schmooze your way to the top and network and do all of these, you know, kind of, I don't want to use the word gross cause I think that there's a skill to it as well, but you know, these things that feel very anti art in order to get your art created.

I think that AI tools are going to make it to where you don't necessarily have to interface with the Hollywood behemoth in order to get a really good and convincing. Film out there. And so, you know, the next Avengers movie, like let's say the last one had a thousand people working on it with AI innovations and things like that, you know, in five years, maybe the next Avengers movie has like You know, 200 people working on it, but I don't think it's like 800 of people now are unemployed and they're just sitting around like waiting to find work.

I think all of them are working at smaller studios or other studios that are getting more creative projects out there that have the same quality as Avengers or, you know, whatever high end production. Uh, you can think of, so I really think it is a, it's a tool that's going to empower more indie artists than, than ever.

And I think if you joined the art world or the filmmaking world with the desire to be a director of your own project, then AI is one of the best things that has ever happened for you. That is really exciting. I can't wait to see like what projects, I mean, we're already seeing so many incredible things just from the students in the workshop.

But, uh, there's just a lot of untold stories that are going to be told now because of these tools. And I think that's incredibly exciting. So with AI now being a part of the workflow, how do you see Hollywood and these, um, systems, right, these pipelines maybe changing? Do you see AI as being just another team on set?

Do you see, um, they're being kind of a niche, like, you know, we have like We have like film, um, indie projects. We have these studios, we have like animations. Do you see AI having its own kind of category of films? Where do you see it living within the world of filmmaking? Yeah, I think every studio in production is going to have an AI consultant and somebody that can contextualize kind of the newer innovations that are popping up.

But what we've seen with Hollywood and even the way in which studios are interfacing with writers right now to define what it means for you to create like a project that is AI assisted, what they're saying is projects that, for example, screenwriting projects that are written by AI, assisted By a screenwriter, prompting it written by AI.

And then of course they would go in and edit it. Cause AI is really not great at long form screenwriting at this point. They're saying that the writer would own the rights to that, that, that script that they specifically would still be attributed as the writer and not, for example, chat GPT and what precedent that sets is in the film production pipeline.

Each role that you have, you will be able to use AI, but still retain that position as a role. Does that make sense? So an animator can now use AI driven animations to, you know, create the rough movement of their person. And then they can go in and like, you know, adjust the key frames from there. Uh, VFX artists can use AI to comp in, you know, a background, but then use their.

Uh, understanding of projections and motion tracking and nuke to like, push it to the next level. And so you're still a compositor. You're still an animator, but you're an AI informed animator, an AI informed compositor. And so I think the same is going to be true in every aspect of the production pipeline.

We were chatting with the director the other day, who was saying that whenever he works on commercial projects, a lot of times they'll have like very big visual representations of like the, the storyboard and like exactly. Um, they, they, and more or less basically what they want to see in the shot. And that is usually been reserved for the commercial world.

But now with tools like mid journey coming out, it's like a cinematographer could run into mid journey and kind of generally try to get the type of lighting, the type of shot composition, all of those things, and bring that to a set to clearly communicate what he's hoping to get. So I think it's a very, uh, interesting, uh, world.

And I think if. You know, you in, if you are siloed with a specific role in the industry, even exploring what that means for you in your specific application, I think is a very interesting way in which to interface with the tools on top of, you know, you could also be all of those roles using AI and use, you know, the latest tools to, to get some cool projects out there as well.

Thank you for sharing. Um, Caleb, I'm curious. I know there's been some criticism coming your way and I would love to hear like what that is and how you're addressing it. How are you handling that? Yeah, there's been some criticism. It's really funny. You'll put a project out there. Everyone will love it. And then, you know, people in the news will start covering it or critics and things like that.

And then like things might get a little more negative, but you know, 98 percent of the feedback that we get is like super positive, which is awesome. I think a lot of the negativity and the critique comes from people not fully understanding or even trying to understand what AI filmmaking is all about, and specifically the type of AI filmmaking that we're trying to champion at Curious Refuge.

I think a lot of people are scared that like, oh, AI is just gonna take your job. Or AI isn't really arts. And, you know, it's just this boring, you know, just amalgamation of all these things that have already existed. But when you get into the reality of actually putting a project together, that's actually like interesting and actually watchable, you end up realizing how much human taste it actually requires, you know, and how much human skill, you know, you can't just prompt and get something like it takes a back and forth process.

And so. I think there's a lot of gatekeepers trying to gatekeep, but ultimately I really am excited for what this means for democratizing filmmaking and empowering everyday people to get their stories out there. In addition to artists out here in the industry who, you know, have long, long term careers and are looking to take these tools and just kind of propel them creatively as well.

And so I think it's an exciting time. And I think like. If you can really begin to look at these tools and begin to understand how they impact your industry, you're going to feel a lot more calm as opposed to this frenetic, like if you only read the news, like if I only read the news about AI, I never would have tried an AI project.

Uh, and none of the awesome community that we've developed would have happened. And so I think it's just like, don't, don't get your, your information from news or critics or people that are trying to create division, like. Like, let's come together as artists and create something beautiful that blends our human taste with some of the output that some of these tools can put together.

So you mentioned that it takes a lot of contextualizing these tools. I want to hear more from you. Well, I think, okay, there's this idea that You can just prompt and create a movie, create a trailer, and that's just not the case right now where the tech is, right? So I want to hear where are we with the technology and where do you see it going?

And also I want to know how long does it take you to create like this Wes Anderson Lord of the Rings video? And what's the pipeline like there? Yeah. Really at this point, there is no way to just type in a prompt and then get a multi shot story with consistency or anything like that. So it's very much a human driven process that requires a ton of curation and skill to get an AI project out the door.

Now in terms of like the Wes Anderson stuff, because those are just experiments, they don't take very long to put together. You know, I'm not, that's not my artistic, you know, uh, magnum opus, look at this beautiful thing. It's just like, you know, what are the limits of, of this technology and where are we at?

Um, so those only took about 20 to 30 hours each and, uh, were pretty easy. It was just able to use my laptop, but generally speaking, it is clear that, you know, the technology behind being able to understand. A story, right? So chat, GBT is beginning to understand a story and understanding how long do you have to hold a shot to tell certain bits of information and to scan an image, to see what is the composition, what elements are there and taking all of these things and like creating an API that connects these technological innovations together to where you can just hit render and it like create something.

It's very clear to me that the tech is here to create a prompt to video experience. Now, will those early videos be any good at all? Probably not, but you know, these image generators weren't any good at all 12 months ago, and so. You know, we're probably two to three years away from prompt to really decent videos, uh, being something that is just a little more mainstream, but even those videos will not be as good as ones that humans craft and put together and, you know, put their, their full time and attention into.

And so I think that there's probably going to be this experience where you type it a prompts and, you know, let's say you're in, you know, premier pro or something like that. You type in a prompt for what you want to see. It gives you something. But then after you get a base, it's like you, you remove this, put this in its place, you take out the music and add in this other thing.

And so it's going to be a back and forth process to create taste and you know, what robots are able to give us at least at this point, uh, are not going to, to get us to the creative finish line, but they will assist in the process. It's an incredibly iterative process like it takes. showing up again and again and prompting to get what you're wanting and, um, yeah, it's an interesting new workflow that's changing every day.

And how, recently we've, you and I were talking about After Effects and how there's this moment and anytime there's like a dramatic update, right, you were like, I feel this kind of like fuzzy feeling where I'm like, oh no, this is, this is like changing how I work and I need to learn this tool. And you mentioned to me that you would feel that maybe every few years, right?

How often do you feel that fuzzy tingling feeling of like, oh no, this is, this is a dramatic update, um, now with these AI tools? Yeah, I mean, for me, that feeling of like, Whoa, my workflow has just been upended. I need to learn this new process or whatever happens literally two to three times a day now and it's a weird experience because it's very exciting.

It's like you see the new thing and you're like, Oh, that's so cool. I'm, Oh my goodness, if I could have used that in a previous workflow, I would have saved all this time. It would have been so awesome. But then there's the other part of you that's like, Oh dang, it's one more thing I have to learn. One more thing I have to stay up to date with.

Um, and so, you know, I think that's where it's important to have creative champions and just a community of people that can encourage you in the process. And, you know, we're all just trying to learn, uh, these tools and what it means together. And, you know, it's by no means, uh, an arms race. And I think it really, these innovations are opening up more opportunities and it's going to open up more.

Of a, um, an online platform for consumption. And I don't think it's like, Oh, there's only a finite number of these videos that can exist. And now I'm just like fighting with everyone else. Like it's happening out here in Hollywood because there's only a finite number of movies that can be made because budgets are finite, right?

Uh, but I don't think that's, is true with AI and it a guy this morning about YouTube, you know, whenever our iPhones put cameras on the back of them and, you know, allowed you to shoot video. Well, it unlocked this entirely new art form where people could tell stories. And I think people criticize content that's created on phones because they don't view it as a story, but even if it's short form content, you sharing about your day, that is a story that could impact someone's life.

And. It's no, it's not less than a film. You know, a film has more artists working on it and that's a beautiful thing, but like stories can be really impactful, even if they're simple in the way in which they were put together. And what happened is people using iPhones and cheap consumer cameras started posting online.

YouTube started taking off and now YouTube is literally as big as the entire film industry. And so more people spend time watching YouTube videos than watching movies. And it literally. Is a huge new emerging industry. It's not emerging at this point, but it was at that time in emerging, uh, consumption platform.

And I think the same will be true for AI. I'm not saying that. AI will have its own version of YouTube. Although maybe that could be the case, but at the very least, I think people will interface with more AI content and especially like this content can now be niched down more to serve, you know, more specific audiences who, you know, might be interested.

I have a friend who's a bodybuilder. And he sent me, like, an AI project of, like, uh, Harry Potter characters bodybuilding, right? And that, like, he loved that video, and a lot of people did. It's so funny, Harry Squatter, I think. Wait, what are the other ones? It's so funny. Oh my god. Yeah, Dumbbell, Dumble, Bell, Dumbledore.

It's so good. Okay, yes, I am obsessed. It's so funny. And like, is, is that film, you know, telling us, uh, uh, some sort of deep story about, you know, our place in existence and what it means to like, find attraction in, no, like this is, we're not watching like Portrait of a Woman on Fire. Like, it's just Dumbbell Door.

Like, we can just appreciate it for that. Both can exist and we can still have a beautiful world. Portrait of a Woman on Fire is one of my favorite films. If you haven't seen it, just, just stop listening and go watch that and then come back because it's so good. Uh, amazing. So with the scope of work changing and these projects, um, maybe even having more niche audiences, do you see that maybe using AI in a pipeline would cut budgets on productions?

I think it could cut budgets and it eventually will. I think figuring out the exact application and use case for AI tools at this point. It comes down to the artists level more than like the studio wide level. And so I think that you as a screenwriter, for example, might be able to, you know, whatever creative hurdles you're running into, get through them a little faster.

Uh, but I don't imagine that, uh, you will completely be taken out of the experience. I think it's just like, you're just going to spend more time editing, which will ultimately make the project better. And I think the same will be true for, you know, animators and VFX artists and things like that. VFX artists specifically are really well known for being completely overworked and for the scope of work being completely unmanageable.

So my hope is knock on wood that with these AI innovations, that VFX artists will be able to get more projects out there or more shots done in a shorter amount of time so that the industry can be more sustainable in terms of their long term viability and just like straight up mental health. Uh, because right now the VFX industry, I don't know if you guys, like, who are listening to this are aware, like it is horrible, like in terms of work life balance and the hours and the demands.

And the talent pool, like it's just across the board, like really, really, uh, not great. And so if AI can come in and help those artists to where they can focus more on the art direction, they can focus more on adding in the very specific elements that will like, take it to the next level, as opposed to just like having to build these things from scratch.

I think it's going to, to really help them in the end, but you know, it's Hollywood. So like they may just demand more, more work and more content. And so I think it's going to be important for artists to. Uh, continue to advocate for themselves, to be around a community of people that are advocating for them.

And, uh, yeah, to just continue to know their worth as, uh, we embrace these new technologies. I love what you just said. And I, I want to ask you so many questions coming off of that, but like talking about advocacy and artists advocating for rights within the workplace. What are your, uh, feelings and thoughts about strikes and people coming together to rally towards an end goal and maybe a better work experience?

Yeah, I think strikes are really important, advocating for artists, advocating for good working conditions and benefits and just making sure that you are being taken care of. If you are working in a full time capacity on something, you should be taken care of so that you can live a life and not have to hustle so much.

I think the unfortunate reality of strikes are It's trying to pull money from an industry, like for example, in the film industry, pulling money from an industry that's been on the decline for the last 10 years, you know, when adjusted for inflation, the film industry is making 36 percent less now than they did in 2015.

And so it's really tricky because my hope with AI is that empowers people. Yes, to do well in the role. And yes, you have bosses and studios trying to make money and you kind of have to play a game to some extent in order to like get a cut of the pie there, but also for those same artists to be able to create side indie projects and to, to see the fruits that come from that, whether it is more opportunities or outside investors or, or what have you.

So it's, it's kind of a double edged sword there that it's like, unfortunate that we have to do strikes. And typically if you're an industry where. You're having to strike it's, there's something usually catastrophically wrong with the hierarchy structure. And so, you know, it's, it's unfortunate that they, that anyone even has to do them, but I absolutely see the value in them and, you know, standby artists who are fighting for a living wage and recognition for the hard work that they put into their craft.

Yeah, that's so good. Can I, I want to ask you, in light of the disruptive nature of these tools, you know, it's, it seems like we've talked a lot about the importance of lifelong learning and in all industries, right? Like as AI, right? evolves and changes, it's going to change the work experience of that industry.

And so how would you encourage folks who, I can imagine that's just very overwhelming and it's going to be consistently overwhelming, right? Maybe every five years you're like, Oh man, like if you're feeling right, that tingling sensation sensation at five times a day, because you're like, Oh wow, this going to.

Be the human experience I'm thinking going forward. And so how are you staying grounded and regulated and like, what are you doing to take care of yourself in the midst of a disruptive? Yeah, I think it's really important to obviously have all like the normal health habits that keep people grounded, like working out, eating healthy, being in good relationships, you know, spiritually being in a good spot, getting out in nature every now and then like all of those core things are super important.

But as an artist, I do think it's also important. Uh, to make sure that you're staying creatively inspired and being grounded in things that are real, you know, going to art museums, going to events like, you know, concerts that inspire you. I really love like going to like theme parks a lot. They re I find them really inspiring in many levels.

And so doing that. And so I think just, you know, F for individuals, they're going to have specific ways in which they stay grounded. Um, but at the same time, I think finding those communities like curious refuge that. Can kind of walk with you through that process and just, you know, help, you know, that you're not alone, you know, we're, we're trying to figure these things out together and, you know, it's, it's new, it's emerging.

Yes. We're going to get you up to date on everything, but you know, if, if you stick around, if you follow, for example, our newsletter, if you watch the videos, you know, it's only going to take a small amount of your time each week, but at the very least, you're going to stay relevant on the latest updates and things that you need to know about.

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, as a community right now, we're going through the artist's way and I think that's super cool because it's just like, we're learning these tools. We're also learning about ourselves and we're trying to really, you know, like, heal our inner artist and explore new, uh, fun ways of creating art.

And I think it's just super cool. I think it's a really cool community we're growing right now. And so I'm happy to be a part of it. I'm happy to be part of it with you. Um, and so how can you mentioned stay relevant? How can people stay relevant? Yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the first and most practical ways I would say is just to, you know, make sure you're subscribed to the curious refuge newsletter, you know, subscribe to our YouTube channel, uh, our online courses, you know, we have, uh, an AI filmmaking course that we constantly update, but the latest techniques and trends and ultimately our goal is if you're a member of the curious refuge community, we want to keep you relevant in the industry and like your skills up to date with just, you know, whatever the latest tech is.

But there's tons of other awesome people online that are also creating great educational content related to AI, obviously X Twitter, whatever you want to call it is a good place to stay up to date on like the most cutting edge new thing that's popped up. Uh, but there's also great YouTube channels like Theoretically Media and Matt Wolf, who.

Um, you know, are great about contextualizing and just kind of sharing what the heck is going on with all of these AI news and updates. So good. Thank you. Um, okay. So have a list of rapid fire questions for you. All right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Um, I, I would love to hear yes or no answers to these questions.

All right. I'll, I'll do my best. Okay. Is AI dangerous for the creative industry? Enough. Is AI art really art? Yes. Yes. Are AI artists less creative? No. Is AI the end of Hollywood? Hollywood's the end of Hollywood, so no. You added a little there, but it's fun. Um, is AI filmmaking the end of actors? No. Will AI cause creatives to be out of work?

All right. And here's a random question, a little unrelated, completely unrelated, but...

Yes, I think we haven't progressed our technology far enough along for them to come and destroy us yet. So it's a bit like having a, an ant farm on your shelf. It's not a problem until the ants get out and start walking around and then you got to just round them up and take them outside. I think it's kind of that situation with aliens.

All right. Fair enough. I like it. And I'd also like to say, That to anyone who is new to curious refuge, like I can't express how much of a pivotal role Shelby has played in the entire process of founding and developing this community. It was actually her idea for me to do the very first AI project. And through that experience, we were able to put together this community.

And now she's really the figurehead that's going to be growing this community and helping everyone feel. welcomed and, uh, appreciated and hopefully optimistic about their creative future. So, Chelle, thank you so much for everything you're doing for Curious Refuge and for artists around the world. I think it's amazing and I just can't wait to grow this thing with you.

Okay. Now I'm just going to go cry. That's so kind. Thank you so much. It's going to take a minute. That's so sweet. No, I'm, I'm honestly so happy. It's, it's really cool. You know, Curious Refuge was started at our dinner table. Like we just would have dinner and go on hikes in LA and just talk and brainstorm about ways to grow a company that encourages and inspires artists.

And so this has been a dream of ours for a really long time. And it's really sweet to see it come alive and just to be a part of it and to be doing it together. So I'm stoked and I'm really excited too. Grow this community and support people and be a refuge, you know, be a safe place to learn, you know, we both love Ted Lasso and the quote that is actually Walt Whitman quote that they use on Ted Lasso is, um, be curious and not judgmental.

And so that's our hope for people joining our community and for, um, for us is to be open to, to look, to look at these tools with curiosity and not judgment. Look at the changing world with curiosity. I think that's going to take you so much further than fear and judgment That's just gonna You know close the door to opportunity, but we want to open it and grow together.

And so we're really excited. I love it I'm excited too. Well, thank you so much for interviewing me shelby. I really appreciate it Now to everyone listening We just want you to know that if you want to learn about what all of these tools Mean for the world of filmmaking you can learn more By visiting our website@curiousrefuge.com.

Obviously you can check out our course, but absolutely no pressure to take that. At the very least, subscribe to our newsletter. It's completely free. We'll keep you up to date on the latest tools and trends. And of course, if you ever have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to reach out. We'd love to hear from you.

Thank you so much for listening to this first episode of The Curious Refuge Podcast. We'll see you next time.